Tired in a Tree的论坛贴

I think this is where it can be very helpful to both trace your lineart AND the reference image! That way you can see the difference between what you observed and what is actually present in the reference image very clearly. 

It would look something like this: 


As you can see with these two tracings next to each other, to me there's two simple observations to make on why the chest looks flatter in your sketch.
One is that your sketch lines are rather straight and don't quite capture muscle curvature (which can be fine btw because sometimes that gets distracting, depends on where you want to put your focus).

The second (and more important) one is that you have, in a way, stretched out the body. Because are used to seeing humans straight on, even when we look at something that's as foreshortened as this image, we tend to want to draw it as if we see it head on. This is where you kind of have to fight your brain to be able to draw what's there, for me that looks like trying to no longer read the model as a human, but just as shape. 

As a more direct edit to the piece you made, you have to give some space to the shoulder muscle and ribcage. A lot of the lines you've drawn inside the torso should be up higher to communicate the width of the chest! 

Hope that helps you!

I guess the question is: What do you find weird about them to begin with? Especially if your portrait drawings made with reference don't give you that feeling, what's the difference between them? 

Like to me your portrait doesn't look weird  - which isn't to say there isn't any place for improvement or advice to give, but it's solid enough where there isn't really an easy-to-explain fix that'll help you elevate your work. (Esp since weird is such an abstract concept to want help with.)

I think when it comes to "incorrect proportions" it might also seem that you do better with animals because you are more familiar with human proportions? (just you know, because you are seeing humans on a daily base, but perhaps not exotic frogs)

Ahh, yeah that makes sense.

Hmmm, I feel like simplifying too much isn't really related to something looking amateurish? There are styles that are extremely simple, that still look professional. It's often polish, composition and confidence that make them succesful - like a little dot for a nose doesn't HAVE to mean someone has no anatomical knowledge of noses, etc.

Maybe if wanting to simplify (to an extent) and getting that ingrained in your system is your goal, then it could work to make it so you don't have time to draw all those details? Or maybe time isn't even the word, like what if you draw a comic pages and force yourself to pare things down just because you don't want to draw a certain amount of detail ten times over?
Like uh, these aren't hard suggestions, I guess it's more of a "Is there a way you can force your own hand here" type of thought. (Which of course... Whatever forces your hand is something you're more likely to know than I am)

Hmm what kind of stylistic choices are you talking about? Like, are we on the level of "I draw nose wrong" or like "I always do this type of composition"? (Like there's such a huge range of things this can cover)



I feel like copying stylistic choices often doesn't stick because... Well, they're fueled by your entire mindset, but on paper it's just This One Small Thing that you're copying. Reaching in and "understanding everything that resulted in that stylistic choice to come naturally to the artist" is very difficult, so don't feel too bad for not being able to make it stick.





ETA: I think this is a difficult one, and it seems unlikely there's gonna be a direct answer to your question, but I'm interested in this discussion!

Mhm!

If you don't like the way they come out currently, maybe what you could do is draw on top of photographs to figure out which lines you'd LIKE to capture.

Hm, it may just be that you're too fast! like judging by your line quality and their confidence, it only makes sense not to "just" draw a line of action, because you have time to draw an entire dang figure!

I feel like the only way you can force a line of action is by making it so you literally only have time to draw a single line before moving on to the next picture.

I don't use a ton of guidelines myself either, I often find them distracting. If you've try using them and they don't work for you? That's totally fine.



I think one way you can improve is giving your drawings enough space - Like, I can tell some of your observations are quite good, but then you run out of space bc of a different drawing, or the edge of the page, and it sorta forces you to warp your lines.

Another thing I think could really help you is pencil weight, right now all your lines are pretty much equally heavy, which makes it difficult to communicate volume. For example, you now have these very clear outlines around the lips, but if you colour them with a lighter grey, they will look less rigid and permanent. It'll be easier to slightly correct them, AND it'll be easier to get stuff in the right locations based on them.



Hope those are maybe useful to you!

Nice, that's the perfect skill for this tbh :D



(Oh and please don't consider that a dig at P3's art, I love it too! But you can see him get technically better over time and that's really neat!)

They do have a way more complex way of bending than a leg, so it makes sense that arms are more difficult to grasp. A leg has a hinge and then a literal cap at the knee, it keeps the location of the muscles at pretty consistent places in comparison to an arm.

(I think this is why I feel like boxes also is a weird approach to arms, because there are two bones in a forearm for a reason)



But since you have those artists you like - I know Shigenori Soejima has a TON of art with foreshortening just in the P5 series. (Heck, so do all the persona dancing entries) It's always an option to minimalistically trace his work and see what exactly makes it go from arm blob to very dynamic art, and what you feel is the difference between your sketches now and those pieces. Although that may be easier when you get your laptop back.

(I think his work is especially fun to study because you have this whole timeline of his skill developing. Persona 3 has great art but it's nowhere NEAR metaphor. Which I really want to play. sobs.)



When it comes to clothing btw, I think the BEST thing you can do is learn a little bit about how garments are constructed - You can gain a lot of knowledge just from owning a tshirt and a pair of pants. If you put seams in the right place, that's half the battle right there. (the other half is 'just' making sure the perspective in the body and garment is the same)

So I have bad news for you... But I think you actually capture those things pretty well. Especially the legs, I had to double check your post to make sure you said you don't feel like they have a 3d feel to them.

But that also makes it really hard to give any suggestions, because if I see the depth in your drawings then to me there's not really a problem to solve. (Doesn't mean I think you can't learn anything on this front, obviously there's always something to improve. But right now it's very "Hm, I don't think your art looks like what you think it looks like.")


Is there a specific visual that you are working towards? As in, do you have an artist in mind who's amazing at foreshortening that you'd like to draw like, but that you feel you don't live up to? Something like that?



(p.s. yeah the coil foreshortening etc always feels like a party trick to me. It sorta works but also it doesn't actually give you any structure to work with.)

Ahhh I've been looking at this art like "I don't think the size is what makes the eyes look off." I couldn't put my finger on it, but just like you, did agree it didn't look entirely right, even though I really like the rest of the drawing.

However, I just realized it's the eye shape - the outer corner of the eyes specfically don't line up.

This is just a quick sketchy version of what I mean because I think it's easier to see what I mean when illustrated, I hope that's alright.

[img]https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0781/1055/6489/files/loa_eyes.png?v=1731147672[/img]

I don't think there's a wrong to be in here - it's not a morality question. It's not a black and white good vs evil battle. If you don't like to draw in this way, that's fine, it doesn't say anything about you as a person other than this book isn't your speed.

I don't agree with this defeatist attitude that you shouldn't draw to improve, you got this!

Also I think full figure tips can be translated to the other categories as well. A line of action exists in hands and faces as well. The way you draw shapes as a base for your figure works in everything too.

(backgrounds have shapes - that's why you have that category with the building blocks. they're specifically just shapes without the noise of like, outside detail)

like, what you should consider in this case I think is that coming up with those base shapes IS the first part of the exercise. Like if you're drawing a hand, where do you put your circles? Maybe you could print out some pictures and draw on top of them to figure out base structure for yourself, etc.

Either way, have fun!

What tends to work for me is that if I get in this situation where like, I feel like I'm practicing AND not learning, to focus on something in particular. Because it's generally that my problem is that "I want to get better" isn't specific enough to actually get better at anything in a way I can actually process.

Now this focus can be anything from "I want to understand arms better" to "I want to draw faster" or whatever you come up with, but I think it'll help to focus on something you can actually parse if it DOES get better.